Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00 Okay.
Speaker 1 00:25 Ivy, Maria Paris, you know, in the name of the father and the son, the Holy Spirit. Amen. Huh. I'll be relying very heavily on the work of others. And as usual I have a cut and paste the quotes. I will start today with a story from the Libor pontiffy calories. Okay, great. So what is the Labor pontifical is? Well, English Libor Pontiffy cost means the book of the Pope's. It has short biographies of Puffs from a Saint Peter up to pops. Even a fifth who, uh, ruled or died actually an eight 91 although there were later additions to the book, which brought the list up to the 15th century. So the Libor pontificate allies is an ancient book containing short biographies of the Pope's from Saint Peter to, and the fifth who died in eight 91. Scholars think that the authors, although leered pontifical ice were clerks that were attached to the papal court, the book was accepted at face value right up in the 17 hundreds.
Speaker 1 01:24 But nowadays there's some doubt regarding the details of the early biographies. Since most scholars think that the early entries in the work weren't written till the fifth or sixth century as one author notes, and I quote, the historical value of the Libor pontifical is varies. The Catholic encyclopedic causes the early biographies up to about the year 500 full of errors and historically untenable. And in this estimation, most scholars seem to be in agreement. The biographies of him 500 through the eight hundreds however, are generally considered to be historically reliable. The value of the Libor Pontificate Alice then is not so much that it's an accurate history of the early church at Rome as much as it's a reflection of what the early medieval Roman church believed about its own history. The Libor pontifical alleys, at least entries up to Pope Anastasio is tells us much more about the seventh and eighth century.
Speaker 1 02:17 Rome church believed that what actually happened in the first fourth centuries. Close quote. Okay, so libor pontificate alleys is an ancient book containing short biographies of the pulps from Saint Peter up to pope Steven the fifth who dies in eight 91 the biographies from the five hundreds to the 800 are generally considered to be historically reliable. Most scholars think that earlier entries in the work weren't written until centuries after the fact, fifth or sixth centuries, and so all the historical accuracy of those earlier biographies is debated. So today what we're going to do is considered one story from Leiber pontificate allies. Then after considering that, ask ourselves about the historical value of the data and then consider the implications. So first we'll look at an event report reported be historical. Second, we'll consider the historical value of the data. And third, the implications. All right. Now in order to really appreciate what we're going to consider, we need to have one more.
Speaker 1 03:19 A bit of background information here. During the Roman persecution is a common test to which the pagan judges would put our ancestors in. The faith was to demand that they take a pinch of incense and placed it on burning coals that were placed on an alter in front of an image of the ampere. Why was placing a pinch of incense in front of the image of ampere a test because he offering incense before the Roman emperor or before his image was understood to be an explicit recognition of his so called divinity of his demand to be treated as a god. If a Christian Willie offered incense to the ampere or to his image, he committed an act of idolatry and a pasta sized from the true faith. And if you refuse to offer the incense, then he was martyred. Okay, so first we're going to consider an event report or be historical.
Speaker 1 04:19 Secondly, considered historical value of the data. And thirdly, consider some of the implications. The historical event. This, this story of Paul Marcelino says he's popped from two 96 to three or four during the great persecution Diocletian I will crawl from Labor Pontiffy collies quote, Selena's by nationality, aroma. The Senate projectors occupied the C eight years, two months and 25 days. He was bishop at the time of Diocletian Mac Simeon from July 1st in the sixth counselorship of Diocletian and a second of Kent stance. Yes. Now they dated things by console ships. What this means, the six counter ship of Diocletian. The second con stance, yes, is a d two 96 so he's <inaudible>. He's bishop of Rome from 80 to 96 until the year when Diocletian was console for the ninth time and Mack Simeon for the eighth which is a d three Oh four at that time, there was a great persecution so that within 30 days, 17,000 Christians of both sexes and diverse provinces were crowned with Martin. For this reason, Marcelina is himself, was hailed the sacrifice that he might offer. Incense. Andy did it.
Speaker 2 05:39 Close quote
Speaker 1 05:42 during the persecution of Diocletian, Marcyliena leanness himself was hailed the sacrifice that he might offer incense. Andy did it. That's a public act of apostasy. The offering of incense before the Roman emperor or fours image has an explicit recognition of his demand to be created as a god SIF, a Christian willingly offered incense to the ampere order's image. He committed an act of idolatry and a pasta size from the faith. There's more historical data. Another manuscript of leader pontificate allies contains more information about this episode and I quote, and after a few days, as senator was held in the province of Campania and the city of Seanna Wesa, which is now known as Rocco Demon Tragoni, and after a few days as senator was held in the province, a companion in the city of synesthesia where with his own lips, he pope Marsalis professed his penitents in the presence of 180 bishops.
Speaker 1 06:44 He wore a garment of hair cloth and ashes upon his head and repented, saying that he had sinned close quote. And there's still more historical data. This story is found in yet another document called the passion of Mar Salinas, which was written sometime around the year 500 quote. This document tells that the Pasta C of Marsalis and propo ports to contain some of the proceedings of the sentence in USAA and the passion marsh leanness. Marseillaise admits his apostasy and asks the suited to pass judgment on him. The Senate, however, refuses to enter into judgment on the pope stating that quote, the first C is judged by no one close quote, which means no one can judge the pope. And that's actually true. Okay? Now, before we consider the historical value of the data, let's make sure we all have a clear understanding of what we just heard. We've just heard about a poll port marsh Salinas being dragged before pagan judge during the persecution of Diocletian be ordered, being ordered to offer, sacrificed an image for the emperor, which is an explicit recognition that the emperor be treated as a God.
Speaker 1 07:49 And the pope did it. In other words, the pulp publicly committed an act of idolatry and apostasizes from the faith. And later that pope clothed in sackcloth and ashes appeared before Sinnott of bishops repenting of his sin and asking the Senate to pass judgment on him. But the center refused saying that no one can judge the pope. That's an explicit teaching of the church that no one can judge the pope. Okay, so that's the historical event. Now let's consider the value of this data, the historical value of the data. We rely on another authors seminary summary who starts by asking the story of Pope Marsalis was written at a minimum of 250 years after the fact and most likely more given the admittedly poor historicity of the Libor pontifical rallies. Could the whole episode have been a fabrication? It's a really good question because this sermon will only hit the high points of the answer since we don't have the time to get into all the details.
Speaker 1 08:50 So what follows is just a running paraphrase on the side of fabrication. The evidence against the apostasy of marshland is boils down to questioning whether this pretend particular centered of cinema west ever occurred. Since no contemporary records of that synod have been discovered, but just because no contemporary records of the senator had been discovered doesn't mean that it never happened. It just means they don't have any contemporary records of it. When my grandpa applied for social security, he didn't have any birth or baptismal certificates, but that didn't mean he hadn't been born, that he wasn't baptized. It just meant that he didn't have the paperwork to prove it. Secondly, even if the Senate of Seanna West, it never happened. That doesn't mean that marsh leanness never pasta size. They're not the same events. There are two events here, one concerns and being hauled before the judge and burning a pinch incense, the other concerns and presented himself before as senator bishops and repenting.
Speaker 1 09:46 Okay, so long as short of it is that the argument that Marsalis has never a pasta size is simply conjecture. At best it has some plausibility, but even at best it's still only a conjecture. Now let's ask if there's any positive evidence to the contrary. Positive evidence that marsh leanness did a pasta size. As a matter of fact, there is to begin with the Roman chronograph, the chronograph. It's a kind of early Christian calendar that contained a list of the councils and the raining pope's and it goes up to three 54 it admit, emits any mention of Pope Mar Selena's a similar counter that had been issued a two decades before and three 36 also fails to mention him taken collectively. It's difficult to see how these emissions were not intentional. There's genu saviors. In fact, a, he became the bishop. It says urea and three 14 so he's a contemporary of marsh.
Speaker 1 10:41 Salinas mentions Marsh Salinas in his history, but he says only cryptically that the persecution also affected him. And what sense was he effected? Furthermore, by the late fourth century, rumors of the pope's apostasy had spread. This is matic donotist bishops of North Africa cited the posse of Marsalis is proof to the mainstream. Catholic Kirk clergy were corrupt and weak and a bunch of compromisers. I mean, when you read the donotist arguments, it's just astonishing of in substance to the same as the SSPs arguments. The, the, the similarities of their behavior and the arguments is just startling. It's almost unbelievable. Anyway, so this is Madec donotist bishops site. This apostasy as proof of the mainstream Catholic clergy are corrupt and weak and a bunch of compromisers. Now these rumors of apostasy are circulating by the late three eighties well within human memory of the events and centuries before the writing of the leaver pontic alleys or the passion Mar Selena's a letter written about 408 d by a dontist named Paatelainen, a letter that the letter that's attacking the very legitimacy the Catholic church accuses Marsh leanness of not only offering up incense, but also of handing over the sacred books.
Speaker 1 12:01 Now that <inaudible>, they call that being a treaded story. That's where we get the word trader hanging out, head on over the sacred books. Santa Gustin himself responds to these claims. He states in regards to <inaudible> and I quote, you mentioned the bishops whom you accused of having delivered up the sacred books. We on our part answer, either you fail on your proof and so it concerns no one at all or you succeed. And then it still has no concern with us for they have borne their own burden, whether it be good or bad and we indeed believe that it was good, but if whatever character it was yet it was their own, just as your bad men have borne their own burden and neither you theirs nor they yours close quote Saint Augusta. In other words, San Augusta does not absolutely deny the truth of the charge. He just says that Paatelainen hasn't offered any proof for his accusation and beyond that Santa Gustin says that even if the charges were true, even if poke marsh leanness did apostasizes, it still has no concern with us.
Speaker 1 13:04 In other words, whether or not this particular pope offered incense and her duress is neither here nor there as far as the legitimacy of the church is concerned, whatever burden marshaling this may have to come to and his day is of no concern to the dontist arguments against the holiness of the Catholic Church. The deeds of bad men do not negate the witness of good men. In other words, Santa Gustin is familiar with the charges against Mark's leanness and personally believes them to be false, but he's not absolutely certain. So he qualifies his answer. So given that Marsh Salinas's name was left out, a two practically contemporary lists of Pope's, given that Santa Guston's defense of him is very qualified, it seems very plausible to say this pope was involved in something unsavory during the great persecution. The only explanation ever given as to what this unsavory activity was, is that it was apostasy as noted in the Libor pontificate alleys, the passion Marsalis, the letter of petition, and the response of Saint Augustan.
Speaker 1 14:06 So we can't say there's a posse is certain, but on the one hand we can see the argument that Marston has never processized is at best simply conjecture. And on the other hand, we can say they're probable guns for assuming there's a core of truth in the story of the postacy of Pope Mar Salinas. Now, the final point to consider when thinking about the historical value of this data is that this story was taken at face value by the Catholics in Rome throughout the centuries. Even though modern scholars might dispute the particulars of the story. No modern scholars going to dispute the fact that for over a thousand years the postacy a pope Marcy is, was accepted as factual by historians of the Catholic Church who actually lived enrollment self. During that time, everyone would have agreed, oh yeah, that really happened. The pope really did do that. No one lost any sleep over it. It was just something that happened.
Speaker 0 15:04 Yeah.
Speaker 1 15:05 Okay, so we've considered the historical event. We considered value the data. Now let's consider some of the implications, the implications, the posse of Pope Marsalis,
Speaker 1 15:16 some so called traditionalist, take it for granted that a pope's spouting off some heresy by that very fact loses his office. Obviously what we have in the case of Pope Mars, Salinas is not heresy but apostasy, which is even worse, and these same people commonly state that a public act of apostasy by that very fat would result in loss of office since apostasy, like heresy cuts went off from the church. But we all know that to believe something that is objective, we speaking heretical and to be a heretic are two quite different things. One of the points of preaching and teaching catechism is to clear up erroneous and or heretical beliefs. The fact that someone may believe something that is objective Lee speaking heretical does not mean that he's a heretic. It may just mean that he's confused or ignorant. A true heretic always has an obstinate attitude regarding the air.
Speaker 1 16:15 Heresy always involves an obstinate, stubborn refusal to be corrected. That's the keynote. And just as there's no true heresy without an obstinate, stubborn refusal to believe that teaching of the church. So also there's no true apostasy without a willful repudiation of the faith. So how does this apply to Pope Mar Selena's? Well, the fact that Pope Marsalis may have committed a formal act of apostasy does not necessarily mean that he truly rejected the faith. As we'll see, we have every reason to believe that he suffered a momentary lapse due to weakness and fear. And that's just exactly what happened to Saint Peter. Our Lord promised Peter explicitly that his faith wouldn't fail. You can read that in the Gospel of Saint Luke chapter 22 and verse 32 but in the courtyard, Peter not only disowns our Lord, but St Matthew's Gospel tells us explicitly that St Peter Actually denied our Lord with an oath, but he didn't lose the faith.
Speaker 1 17:24 Losing the faith, becoming a true heretic, becoming a true apostate is something much deeper than a momentary lapse, driven by weakness or fear. So even though it's always scandalous when the pub does something damaging to the faith, or worse yet commits a public act of apostasy like St Peter is, we simply don't have the grounds for sending the pope has lost the fate since one can judge the pole. The Roman church assumed the Marsh Salinas did apostasizes but never suggested that buys a pause to see he lost the papacy or fell from office. Yes, he was admitted from some paperless put together in the middle 300 but his name appears in all the later lists and there's no evidence of an anti pope during his lifetime. Everyone clearly regarded marsh as a legitimate pope both before and afters, apostasy. And there's another important and very practical lesson here. Notice what we don't see here. We don't see everyone freaking out doing cartwheels and back springs and running around like chicken chickens with their heads cut off <inaudible> response to the fact that the pulp been an absolutely spectacular denial of Christ and formally worshiped a pagan God. Pope's can do some crazy and unedifying things and occasionally they have, but that shouldn't sake our faith one little bit.
Speaker 1 18:54 If and when a pope does something fairly nutty, what we just had to pray harder, see another decade of the rosary foreign and then if you're still worked up, relax, don't go. Don't worry. Go have another cold one. Don't lose your inner peace. You can't grow in holiness if you don't keep your inner peace. Which brings me around to more current events. No one can reasonably deny that what's going on in Rome is pretty bizarre. The strange things are, holy father says the treatment of the Franciscans and immaculate, the Senate round one round two coming up and that ain't going to be an eight second ride. You better be prayed up. Then cyclical is, you know, I'm trained as a scientist. I could recommend that you can just watch Lord Christopher mocked and if you want a reasonable discussion of climate change, but that being sent, frankly the reaction than sick, the reaction that's cyclical is itself premature.
Speaker 1 19:55 That thing's almost 200 pages long. It's going to take some time to digest and reflect on and it's just plain flat unreasonable to expect a thoughtful, measured, prayerful response to something like that in a day or two. No, that is not to say that the pope is above criticism. He's not above criticism. I just spent 20 minutes hammering on a pope for apostasy, but if we're going to engage in criticism, it has to come from a place of peace, from place of prayer, from a real necessity, with a real intention of extending him every possible benefit of the doubt and from a true filial devotion to him. If ever the fourth commandment apply to anywhere, it has to apply to our relationship with the Holy Father. Devotion doesn't mean we to like him. It means we have to love them. And that's not the same thing. Everybody loves their teenagers, even though they don't always like them. It's okay to like the pope, but that doesn't matter. You have to love him and we have to be careful. We treat or the vicar of Christ, we have to be careful,
Speaker 1 21:07 but that's not really what we're seeing these days, is it? No. We're seeing more and more insane responses to all the chaos from above. We are bloggers and journalists stating as if they know that Francis has lost the faith, casting doubts upon his beatifications publicly questioning than fallibility of his cannibalization, mocking him, calling him all kinds of things. I won't repeat here or anywhere else. So even though I think that many bloggers perform a very important, even a vital function, they really do. Still, it's quite possible to do the right thing in the wrong way. James Three one reminds us that not many of you should become teachers. My brothers for you realize we will be judged more strictly. That's the word of God. Not many of you should become teachers. My brothers, for you realize that we judge more strictly since bloggers have appointed themselves to be teachers.
Speaker 1 22:14 I can only assume that either many of them do not read their bibles or else they do not believe that God means exactly what he says. Teachers will be judged more strictly in a spirit of fraternal charity. I've actually tried to privately correct some traditional bloggers and journalists on various topics where they're actually clearly wrong and departing from Catholic teachings here in serious matters, I've communicated with them regarding serious errors on topics such as usury beatifications, Canada, Zations, and CISM. In every case, save one. Regardless of the evidence, including song judgements of consuls and popes, the people I've communicated with have furiously rendered their own private judgements and in spite of any evidence to contrary, obstinately stuck with it. So I've given up on their minds are made up and it doesn't matter what sort of evidence you bring forth. The people that I've had dealings with are not in love with the truth. So for my money, a lot of these people out to be getting fitted for as best as suits, cause there's every indication that they're gonna need them. If you must visit Catholic blogs, be careful. Be Very careful about the blogs you visit and especially for what passes for analysis on them. Be Very careful. One last thought before we close, God has regard for his vicar. You forget that at your own peril. A lot of people in our day and age have forgotten that, but you must never ever forget that God has regard for his vicar.
Speaker 1 23:59 If you turn to April 26 and your missy, you'll see that it's the feast day of Saint Cletus. He's the third pole. You also see that St Cletus shares his feast day with another sing, a saint named Salinas. You see, even Omar Salinas committed a public act of apostasy. When he offered a pinch of incense to Cesar, he repented. The leader pontifical has tells us court Marcedes himself was dragged a sacrifice that he made a offer incense and he did it. And after a few days inspired by Penitence, he was beheaded by the same Diocletian and crown with Martin for the faith of Christ.
Speaker 0 24:45 Yeah.
Speaker 1 24:46 After a few days inspired by penitents, he was beheaded by the same Diocletian and Crowl with Martin for the faith of Christ. Be Very, very careful about shopping to conclusions about our holy father is that pub does something crazy. It isn't the first time, calm down, say another decade of you rose reform and never forget that God has regard for his thicker.
Speaker 0 25:16 Hey
Speaker 1 25:17 Paula St Mara Salinas, pray for us in the name of father and of the son and the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 0 25:25 Amen.
